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Fleck said Tuesday that Brooks was medically cleared to play last Sunday. The Gophers' plan has been to play Brooks, a true senior, in up to four games this season; that's the participation limit a new NCAA rule allows without costing a player a year of eligibility.

Brooks is expected to return to Minnesota for the season. Gophers freshman quarterback Zack Annexstad has seven interceptions and four touchdowns in three Big Ten games this season, including two picks in last week's loss to second-ranked Ohio State.

But Fleck pinned only one of those against the Buckeyes on Annexstad. Flech said the first interception in the first quarter was a jump ball that U receiver Rashod Bateman should have won instead of Buckeyes' Kendall Sheffield.

You either get a pass interference call or break up the pass or you catch it. Those are your options. The second interception in the fourth quarter was the byproduct of Annexstad not looking off safety Isaiah Pryor before throwing and putting too much arch under the ball for an easy pick by Pryor.

Think this is what it comes down to. Witnesses said it was Martin, Zimmerman says it was him. The feds will do voice analysis on the recording, and if it's Martin, things won't go well for Zimmerman or the local police.

How the fuck is chasing someone and shooting them "self defence"? Is the Stand Your Ground law supposed to be basically be a get out of jail free card for people, regardless of the situation at hand, claim they feel they were in danger?

I could shoot someone and just lie and say I felt he was threatening me. No witnesses, right? It would seem and I'll let a jury decide that the circumstances show the kid retrospectively wasn't a threat, wasn't armed and likely minding his own business.

If the neighborhood watch guy felt "threatened" then there' something wrong with him. I'd say shooting the watch guy and claiming you felt threatened with a known child shooter walking around your neighborhood.

Assuming no witnesses, well.. I posted at length in the Gun Control thread, but I think my closing sentence sums up my opinion succinctly: It's not "self defense" when you're the assailant.

This story wants to make me cry. That poor kid. That fat bastard needs to get charged with murder. Kid was shot for being black.

CUclimber wrote: Quote: I'd have no problem with Zimmerman being released on bail, I don't get the impression that he's an imminent threat I dunno-- someone who actively stalked and killed an innocent kid in his neighborhood sounds like a threat to me.

I'm just speculating here, as are we all, but I suspect this wasn't a case of murderous intent. The scenario I have playing out in my mind is a dumbass who imagines himself to be a cop, correcting the injustices he sees in the world.

He sees a kid he thinks is up to no good, probably filled with outrage at all of the criminals running free and wreaking havoc, and is already amped up on adrenaline as he approaches the kid.

He's probably a bit scared and freaked out himself, after all he thinks he's approaching a criminal. I can see him stepping in front of the kid, cutting off his path, and the kid scared and freaked out himself picks up pace and maybe shoulder-checks him as he attempts to escape.

Now the dumbass thinks he's being attacked, not realizing that he basically forced this exact response, and pulls his gun and starts firing. That's how I'm imagining it went down anyways, it's entirely possible something else entirely happened.

Possible options range from him hunting down and murdering the kid in cold blood, to him approaching with a smile and a wave and the kid attacking him unprovoked.

I strongly suspect both of those extreme scenarios are implausible based on the limited information I have though.

That he showed with them doesn't mean they brought him, he could've called them, and led them o the house, then interjected himself.

Then again, given how happy to hide this the local yokels were, maybe they did. Some people agree there should be an investigation, that he was too high on his own imagined authority, but it's hardly a dogpile.

I didn't bookmark it lunch at work but the LA Times had an article up earlier I can't find it now they have so many about this case, detailing the Stand Your Ground law in FL.

SYG has been used by gang members at gang fights to get off of what would otherwise be felony murder shooting each other at a gang turf war , by drunks getting belligerent in bars, and a few other truly ridiculous examples of exploiting a law to ensure lots of 'unwanted people' kill each other off.

The short list read like a satire, a parody of what Concealed-Carry laws lead to, then you realize that it's real.

Without debating CC laws, I think the problem is that FL followed up a lot of pro-gun rights laws with some asinine pro-justification laws, instead of strict consequence of decision laws.

That is, instead of creating a structure in society where you CAN wear or conceal a firearm but if you use it, you're obligated to suffer the consequences of your decision, they created a very real 'shoot first, ask questions later' society.

Like I said plenty of other states have similar laws, without these sort of outcomes. So either Florida's law is materially different, which I doubt, or the difference is in application and interpretation.

For starters I'd love to know how a gunfight between gang members results in a no-bill from a prosecutor. I'm having trouble imagining a gunfight between two rival gangs where all of the participants had clean criminal records, using guns they purchased lawfully, and in possession of valid concealed carry permits.

Which means that a prosecutor has several options for criminal charges, even ignoring the particulars of the shootout itself. Quote: SYG has been used by gang members at gang fights to get off of what would otherwise be felony murder shooting each other at a gang turf war , I'm skeptical.

That doesn't mean it's worked. The St. Petersburg Times article on the SYG law that is the source of that particular talking point.

Quote: In the majority of the cases, the person's use of force was excused by prosecutors and the courts. Proponents say that means the law is working, allowing people to protect themselves without having to ponder legalities in the heat of an attack.

You don't have to wait to see how much of a victim you're going to be. You don't have to wait for the first bone to break.

But the law has also been used to excuse violence in deadly neighbor arguments, bar brawls, road rage — even a gang shoot-out — that just as easily might have ended with someone walking away.

Quote: In , two gangs in Tallahassee got into a shoot-out. A year-old boy was killed. A judge dismissed charges against the shooters, citing "stand your ground.

On the radio I heard the following items about Zimmerman: He applied to police school or whatever it is called to become a cop but was turned down.

His record includes assaulting a police officer, though it is expunged or something. And the police don't actually know where he is at the moment, he could have left the state.

The local police very much failed to do what normally they do, such as administering drug and sobriety tests. The police procedures that allow them to say "he shot and killed a person, but he's got a bloody nose, so you are free to go" are very much inadequate.

I would have thought that killing someone with a gun or knife or almost any manner outside of a car crash would require a trip down to the police station.

As for the cry for help, I've read that when some of the local witnesses who heard it said the boy cried out for help, the police corrected them saying it was Zimmerman.

Not quite sure how they know that since they weren't there when it happened, and are just eating up what Zimmerman told them. Anyways, if the Stand Your Ground law allows someone to chase another person down shoot them, then give themselves a bloody nose who knows when that happened , then there are serious problems.

This story sounds like Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Tracy Martin, the father of the slain teen, said police told him that Zimmerman's background was "squeaky clean.

That allowed him to legally obtain the weapon he was carrying the night of the shooting. Zimmerman and his father have temporarily left their home, after they were the subject of death threats, according to media reports.

Ku Klux Klan Act wrote: If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured— They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

I want to know more about this 'neighborhood watch' group Federal homicide law generally follows the common law scheme whereby intent can be formed in an instant and the burden of proving mitigation to manslaughter is on the defendant.

S Gun rights types should be running as far away from this guy as possible. This is not the kind of press you want. Paltivar wrote: The St.

Interestingly, I read identical or nearly-so text in another article, not that one. But that's the stuff I was thinking of. I did find another article, spurred on to search, that indicated that the teen in question was a member of one of those gangs.

I'd be curious about the particulars about that case. It's apparently not uncommon for a lot of local elected judges not to even have a law education, and as a result aren't exactly the most knowledgeable on the law.

I know at least I've read of a number of cases here in PA where a defense attorney had to attempt to politely educate some local-yokel judge on matters of law.

Though without details I can't say that's what happened here, I wouldn't be totally surprised if some idiot elected judge heard about Florida's new law and decided it meant he had to let these guys go.

Although I thought that elected judges typically only handled minor criminal cases misdemeanor stuff , not felony matters.

Maybe someone like Faramir can weigh in here, assuming anyone can even track down the details of the case. Ars of Ares wrote: BarCode wrote: I also have to say that the stench of racism is all over this from how the young man was suspected of being a criminal and suspicious by Zimmerman to the way the police handled it subsequently.

I will post links to calls when I get to a computer that can access them I knew I had read the account of 'witness tampering' somewhere: "Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, that it was Zimmerman who cried for help, the witness told ABC News. My strong suspicion is because the victim was a young black male.

BarCode wrote: Ars of Ares wrote: BarCode wrote: I also have to say that the stench of racism is all over this from how the young man was suspected of being a criminal and suspicious by Zimmerman to the way the police handled it subsequently.

There was also the fact that the person yelling for help abruptly ceased when the shots rang out. Straight Gays Transsexuals. Slutty young wife cheats on husband for cash.

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Or is this just a case of police not doing their job, relying on a law to let a little vigilante misjustice slide? A couple of..

George Zimmerman had previously called dozens of times to report people walking through his neighborhood, even in broad daylight.

ABC story from which the quotes are pulled. Despite some claims, there's nothing in Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law that prevents the police from doing a proper investigation and bringing charges if necessary.

So far as I can tell the real problem is that Zimmerman was tight with the local police, and so they've punted the issue to the county prosecutor.

You're allowed to claim self-defense while out on the streets in any state, the primary difference is that "Stand Your Ground" does not impose a duty to retreat.

Pennsylvania law is the same in this regard, it was just included as part of our "Castle Doctrine" law. These are just names for legislation, there's no hard and fast rule regarding what is or is not included in a particular states law.

In any case the law doesn't prevent charges from being filed, in any case of ambiguity of which there seems to be plenty here that's what the courts are for.

From what I've heard of Zimmerman's background, he strikes me as a wannabe cop. He was the head of his neighborhood watch, and was apparently a habitual caller to He chose to follow and confront what he considered to be a "suspicious figure", despite the dispatcher telling him to stay back and wait for the police to arrive.

My suspicion is that he confronted Trayvon Martin, and Martin probably did not react favorably and probably thought he was being attacked himself.

I don't think we'll ever know whether Martin acted aggressively toward Zimmerman, but even if he did, Martin had as much right to defend himself against an unknown assailant as anyone else.

How was he to know that the man confronting him in the dark was a neighborhood watch volunteer? I'll see if I can dig up a link, but on the way home I heard on NPR that some new evidence had been brought forth.

Apparently Martin was on his cell phone throughout the entire encounter, speaking with a friend. The friend recounts hearing Martin describe being followed by an aggressive stranger, and attempting to get away from him.

Unfortunately there will be no recording, unlike the calls to , but it's pretty damning testimony none the less. Apparently the prosecutor is bringing the case to a grand trial, so it seems like there is some movement on this case.

I'd have no problem with Zimmerman being released on bail, I don't get the impression that he's an imminent threat or a flight-risk, but I certainly think that the courts need to resolve what happened one way or the other.

I suspect that if Zimmerman is convicted of anything, it will be manslaughter and not murder. I doubt he set out to kill an innocent black kid, but I think he negligently placed himself into a situation where he caused the loss of an innocent life.

My perfunctory reading of this story just over the last couple days suggests very strongly that the shooter should be arrested and very likely charged with murder.

Even if he was defending himself from 'attack' which doesn't seem to be the case it seems that he completely provoked that attack by following Martin for an extended period of time.

I also have to say that the stench of racism is all over this from how the young man was suspected of being a criminal and suspicious by Zimmerman to the way the police handled it subsequently.

I believe I saw a report suggesting that police encouraged a witness or witnesses to lie about the events. I'm responding to a comment made in the Gun Control thread here, where it's on-topic: Alamout wrote: It's good that they're investigating the case, but it's annoying that the court of public opinion seems to have made up its mind.

On the other hand, it seems that the local authorities were willing to let the entire matter drop before it came to national attention.

Seems the outrage from the "court of public opinion" may have been necessary. Anechoic wrote: Freepers are dogpiling on Zimmerman.

That's telling. I'm no "freeper" by any stretch of the imagination, but I am a strong advocate of gun and self-defense rights.

I hate to throw a fellow concealed-carrier under the bus, but quite frankly this entire situation stinks. Generally speaking I applaud police and prosecutors who recognize a clear-cut case of self-defense when they see it, and spare the victim by not arresting them and pressing charges.

This is hardly one of those clear cut cases. Even if the evidence ultimately exonerates him, I think this is one of those cases where a trial is necessary to make that determination.

XL, it's in the ABC story. It's his girlfriend. As to the law and history, thanks for the clarification.

I wasn't aware that he had ties with local police. Ars of Ares wrote: I wasn't aware that he had ties with local police. To be fair, that's probably speculation at this point.

He could be "that guy" that the local police hate for bothering them all the time, or he could be friendly with them. There have been accounts from another black family living in the subdivision whose teenage son was harassed by Zimmerman, and he apparently showed up at their door with the police accusing their son of being involved in some recent thefts.

Normally police will show up at the callers house and their their statement, and then visit the other residence to get their side of the story and continue the investigation, not invite the caller to along.

I could be reading too much into this, but that suggest to me that he was friendly with those officers. BarCode wrote: I also have to say that the stench of racism is all over this from how the young man was suspected of being a criminal and suspicious by Zimmerman to the way the police handled it subsequently.

I have a hard time swallowing that. It's easy to believe the police got lazy because there were no witnesses.

I will post links to calls when I get to a computer that can access them. Quote: I'd have no problem with Zimmerman being released on bail, I don't get the impression that he's an imminent threat I dunno-- someone who actively stalked and killed an innocent kid in his neighborhood sounds like a threat to me.

Ars of Ares wrote: I have a hard time swallowing that. I'm certainly willing to believe that the police got lazy. On the other hand do you'd think they'd exhibit the same laziness if the roles were reversed?

Somehow I suspect not. Perhaps not overt racism, but there probably is a tendency to assume that the black teen is the aggressor.

Let's face it, police departments spend a disproportionate amount of their time arresting black teenage males who very much are guilty.

It's hard to prevent the human brain from making those sort of connections, no matter how otherwise liberal and enlightened you may be.

That doesn't justify laziness. Think this is what it comes down to. Witnesses said it was Martin, Zimmerman says it was him. The feds will do voice analysis on the recording, and if it's Martin, things won't go well for Zimmerman or the local police.

How the fuck is chasing someone and shooting them "self defence"? Is the Stand Your Ground law supposed to be basically be a get out of jail free card for people, regardless of the situation at hand, claim they feel they were in danger?

I could shoot someone and just lie and say I felt he was threatening me. No witnesses, right? It would seem and I'll let a jury decide that the circumstances show the kid retrospectively wasn't a threat, wasn't armed and likely minding his own business.

If the neighborhood watch guy felt "threatened" then there' something wrong with him. I'd say shooting the watch guy and claiming you felt threatened with a known child shooter walking around your neighborhood.

Assuming no witnesses, well.. I posted at length in the Gun Control thread, but I think my closing sentence sums up my opinion succinctly: It's not "self defense" when you're the assailant.

This story wants to make me cry. That poor kid. That fat bastard needs to get charged with murder. Kid was shot for being black.

CUclimber wrote: Quote: I'd have no problem with Zimmerman being released on bail, I don't get the impression that he's an imminent threat I dunno-- someone who actively stalked and killed an innocent kid in his neighborhood sounds like a threat to me.

I'm just speculating here, as are we all, but I suspect this wasn't a case of murderous intent. The scenario I have playing out in my mind is a dumbass who imagines himself to be a cop, correcting the injustices he sees in the world.

He sees a kid he thinks is up to no good, probably filled with outrage at all of the criminals running free and wreaking havoc, and is already amped up on adrenaline as he approaches the kid.

He's probably a bit scared and freaked out himself, after all he thinks he's approaching a criminal. I can see him stepping in front of the kid, cutting off his path, and the kid scared and freaked out himself picks up pace and maybe shoulder-checks him as he attempts to escape.

Now the dumbass thinks he's being attacked, not realizing that he basically forced this exact response, and pulls his gun and starts firing.

That's how I'm imagining it went down anyways, it's entirely possible something else entirely happened. Possible options range from him hunting down and murdering the kid in cold blood, to him approaching with a smile and a wave and the kid attacking him unprovoked.

I strongly suspect both of those extreme scenarios are implausible based on the limited information I have though.

That he showed with them doesn't mean they brought him, he could've called them, and led them o the house, then interjected himself. Then again, given how happy to hide this the local yokels were, maybe they did.

Some people agree there should be an investigation, that he was too high on his own imagined authority, but it's hardly a dogpile.

I didn't bookmark it lunch at work but the LA Times had an article up earlier I can't find it now they have so many about this case, detailing the Stand Your Ground law in FL.

SYG has been used by gang members at gang fights to get off of what would otherwise be felony murder shooting each other at a gang turf war , by drunks getting belligerent in bars, and a few other truly ridiculous examples of exploiting a law to ensure lots of 'unwanted people' kill each other off.

The short list read like a satire, a parody of what Concealed-Carry laws lead to, then you realize that it's real.

Without debating CC laws, I think the problem is that FL followed up a lot of pro-gun rights laws with some asinine pro-justification laws, instead of strict consequence of decision laws.

That is, instead of creating a structure in society where you CAN wear or conceal a firearm but if you use it, you're obligated to suffer the consequences of your decision, they created a very real 'shoot first, ask questions later' society.

Like I said plenty of other states have similar laws, without these sort of outcomes. So either Florida's law is materially different, which I doubt, or the difference is in application and interpretation.

For starters I'd love to know how a gunfight between gang members results in a no-bill from a prosecutor. I'm having trouble imagining a gunfight between two rival gangs where all of the participants had clean criminal records, using guns they purchased lawfully, and in possession of valid concealed carry permits.

Which means that a prosecutor has several options for criminal charges, even ignoring the particulars of the shootout itself.

Quote: SYG has been used by gang members at gang fights to get off of what would otherwise be felony murder shooting each other at a gang turf war , I'm skeptical.

That doesn't mean it's worked. The St. Petersburg Times article on the SYG law that is the source of that particular talking point. Quote: In the majority of the cases, the person's use of force was excused by prosecutors and the courts.

Proponents say that means the law is working, allowing people to protect themselves without having to ponder legalities in the heat of an attack.

You don't have to wait to see how much of a victim you're going to be. You don't have to wait for the first bone to break. But the law has also been used to excuse violence in deadly neighbor arguments, bar brawls, road rage — even a gang shoot-out — that just as easily might have ended with someone walking away.

Quote: In , two gangs in Tallahassee got into a shoot-out. A year-old boy was killed. A judge dismissed charges against the shooters, citing "stand your ground.

On the radio I heard the following items about Zimmerman: He applied to police school or whatever it is called to become a cop but was turned down. His record includes assaulting a police officer, though it is expunged or something.

And the police don't actually know where he is at the moment, he could have left the state. The local police very much failed to do what normally they do, such as administering drug and sobriety tests.

The police procedures that allow them to say "he shot and killed a person, but he's got a bloody nose, so you are free to go" are very much inadequate.

I would have thought that killing someone with a gun or knife or almost any manner outside of a car crash would require a trip down to the police station.

As for the cry for help, I've read that when some of the local witnesses who heard it said the boy cried out for help, the police corrected them saying it was Zimmerman.

Not quite sure how they know that since they weren't there when it happened, and are just eating up what Zimmerman told them. Anyways, if the Stand Your Ground law allows someone to chase another person down shoot them, then give themselves a bloody nose who knows when that happened , then there are serious problems.

This story sounds like Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Tracy Martin, the father of the slain teen, said police told him that Zimmerman's background was "squeaky clean.

That allowed him to legally obtain the weapon he was carrying the night of the shooting. Zimmerman and his father have temporarily left their home, after they were the subject of death threats, according to media reports.

Ku Klux Klan Act wrote: If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured— They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

I want to know more about this 'neighborhood watch' group Federal homicide law generally follows the common law scheme whereby intent can be formed in an instant and the burden of proving mitigation to manslaughter is on the defendant.

He had his own issues as well. I wasn't seriously implying that, more a comment about her absolute lack of thinking about her comments and what they really mean.

I have nothing further to add, since I'm not a person clamoring for revenge on GZ, which I assume to mean of the violent vigilante variety.

Don't think anyone here has argued in favor of that. It's quite possible that Zimmerman tried to restrain TM in some way so that he wouldn't get away, which was his primary concern when he left his vehicle to follow TM when he ran.

That is more than enough reason for TM to fight back. That Zimmerman tried to restrain Martin is quite an assumption, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

How is this, in any way, different than the assertion that Martin was pissed that some 'creepy-ass cracker' was following him, and wanted to prove himself by confronting and beating the crap out of Zimmerman?

It is possible that a whole lot of things could have happened. If you do not have any evidence for it, it is irrelevant, and a world where wild conjecture is allowed to convict people is not a just one.

I was responding to Zarko making the explicit claim that TM started the fight. I was pointing out that it could just have easily been GZ that started it, because there's no evidence one way or the other, and then I pointed out that GZ had made a statement right before leaving his vehicle that he didn't want TM to get away.

So, there's at least as much reason to believe that GZ started it as TM. RDeVoe wrote: In my experience Conservative Evangelicals as a group are just as pervy, kinky, drug using, whatever as the rest of the country I've known some that way.

But certainly not the majority. Pontiphex wrote: Tangential question: Does your Evangelical Christianity worldview have you looking down upon the use of Alcohol in the same way you look down upon use of Marijuana?

That is a less black-and-white answer. The more strict interpretation is to avoid alcohol in order to avoid the appearance of consuming to excess and to avoid the appearance of indulging in worldly pleasures.

The less strict is that it is okay in moderation. After all, Jesus consumed wine on multiple occasions. He even turned water into wine.

And not just the boxed stuff, the good stuff! And no, it wasn't grape juice as some of my idiot fundie brethren claim. I get very sick with even a little bit.

I don't think you are doing this on purpose, but it is a strawman. There may be a limited number of people who, in fact, want revenge, but generally the protest is over justice.

They feel justice was not carried out. If you feel that it is somehow wrong to disagree with a jury, then you must question the entire legal system, since it would allow exactly that were Zimmerman found guilty.

No part of the Bible has anything to say about marijuana. The Bible does forbid the wearing of clothing made from linen and wool though.

So if that hoodie was a mixed fabric than I guess I can see how an evangelical could think Martin deserved to die.

MightySpoon wrote: leavitron wrote: papadage wrote: And who cares I ma sure we can zero in on a county in TN with very high murder rates as well.

Though missest the point. The point is that Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country, yet the gun violence just keeps getting worse.

Why is that the point? You didn't bring anything up about gun laws when you made your fallacious claims about what these men do with their time. Why are you shifting the goalposts even further from topical relevancy?

Papadage seems to think that he counters the Chicago criticism by pointing out that TN "is a more violent state. He is watering down the issue in order to try and deflect.

I was correcting him. Chicago has horrible gun murder rates and we don't hear the black mouthpieces uttering one word decrying it.

Thus my initial comparison between justice for one and justice for all. It's a flim-flam excuse to say that a private individual can do whatever he wants with his time.

That's utter BS. The proof is in the pudding. And the proof is that Sharpton and Jackson want to stoke flames, not effect real change.

You're going to have to be specific, though. The context is murder and among blacks, and the implication is via gun.

Domestic violence or rape are not going to cut it. This is not the gun control thread, so who gives a shit? That is a dodge in order to try and make Sharpton or Jackson relevant, so they can be used to taint the debate.

And the fucked up self defense law in FL is just that, even without bring in race. And this case was not about black on black crime anyway. What the hell are you talking about here?

See above. Also, news flash. If blacks look to Sharpton and Jackson for when to get outraged then they are the defacto leaders. And I see you have no citation for your "TN is a more violent state" line of bull.

I'll continue harping on Chicago then. You seriously don't know your neighbors as well as you think you do. It's been demonstrated categorically that one of the places in our country that is the loudest and most aggressive against watching porn is Utah.

Paradoxically, it is also the highest per-capita consumer of porn. Before you argue that this point is irrelevant, think about this: It's only irrelevant if porn is somehow special and unique in how society deals with it Hint: it isn't.

When someone does something that they like to do particularly if they think it's harmless , but their peer environment is vocally against that thing, they're no less likely to do it , they just hide it and preach against it just as loudly, so as not to stand out among their peers.

Quote: I've known some that way. You aren't wanting to see it then, for example Teen Pregnancy rates are higher among Evangelical Christians Who says blacks look to them?

And who cares about them in this debate about whether Zimmerman is culpable? You brought them up to sidetrack this thread. SB: What?

And by the way.. Chicago has nothing to do with this thread.. You're just repeating racist memes. Quote: Chicago has horrible gun murder rates and we don't hear the black mouthpieces uttering one word decrying it.

More despicable lies already rebutted: viewtopic. All blacks look to them, eh? Since you would usually become apoplectic if someone made such a bold statement, support for this bald-faced lie is requested.

DanaR wrote: Pontiphex wrote: I'm really racking my brain on how a evangelical christian is demonstrating such lack of concern for his fellow man.

Demonstrably false. Quote: In , independently-registered researcher and author Arthur Brooks tackled the issue of political ideology as it pertains to giving.

Interestingly, on average, conservatives earn less than liberals. Ars of Ares wrote: leavitron wrote: If they feel that GZ took the law into his own hands when he shot TM, how are they any better for wanting revenge on GZ?

Faramir wrote: No part of the Bible has anything to say about marijuana. I may not be fashion conscious, but I am fully aware that I am not bound by the Levitican Law that you are so fond of referencing.

What percantage of those donations are to hate mongerers pretending to be followers of Jesus? Giving money so you can pay your pastor's salary and buy a full city block for your mega-church is super duper generous, but I'm not sure it off-sets shit like actively working to prevent gay people from getting married.

I guess caring for your fellow man is in the eye of the beholder, however. RDeVoe wrote: Quote: I've known some that way. I genuinely don't see it.

And I know at least one Evangelical with a pregnant teen. The prohibition against incest also appears in Leviticus, so I guess you must be okay with that too?

Jesse L. Jackson, Sr. Sabina pastor Fr. No, I'm pointing to individuals who are hypocrites and race baiters. It's cool though, we all have them.

Faramir wrote: leavitron wrote: Faramir wrote: No part of the Bible has anything to say about marijuana.

The gay stuff, too. Faramir wrote: What percantage of those donations are to hate mongerers pretending to be followers of Jesus?

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